30 of 30 daily downloads left · resets in 20hSign in for 50 a day
Transcript
0:00Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report.0:02I'm Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.0:05A retired CIA agent who blew the whistle on the agency's Bush-era torture program has0:10been sentenced to two and a half years in prison.0:13John Kiriakou becomes the first CIA official to be jailed for any reason relating to the0:18torture program.0:20Under a plea deal, Kiriakou admitted to a single count of violating the Intelligence0:24Identities Protection Act by revealing the identity of a covert officer to a freelance0:29reporter, who did not publish it.0:32Under the plea deal, prosecutors dropped charges brought under the Espionage Act.0:37In 2007, Kiriakou became the first CIA official to publicly confirm and detail the Bush administration's0:43use of waterboarding when he spoke to ABC's Brian Ross.0:47BRIAN ROSS, At the time, I felt that waterboarding was something that we needed to do.0:52And as time has passed and as September 11 has, you know, has moved farther and farther0:58back into history, I think I've changed my mind.1:02And I think that waterboarding is probably something that we shouldn't be in the business1:05of doing.1:06Why do you say that now?1:08Because we're Americans and we're better than that.1:11John Kiriakou's supporters say he has been unfairly targeted in the Obama administration's1:15crackdown on government whistleblowers.1:18In a statement urging President Obama to commute Kiriakou's sentence, a group of signatories,1:23including attorneys and former CIA officers, said, quote,1:27Kiriakou is an anti-torture whistleblower who spoke out against torture1:31because he believed it violated his oath to the Constitution.1:35Please, Mr. President, do not allow your legacy to be one where only the whistleblower goes to jail.1:41Prosecutor Neil McBride, the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia,1:45defended the government's handling of the case.1:47As the judge just said in court, today's sentence should be a reminder to every individual who works for the government,1:58who comes into the possession of closely held sensitive information regarding the national defense or the identity of a covert agent,2:08that it is critical that that information remains secure and not spill out into the public domain2:15or be shared with others who don't have authorized access to it.2:19AMY GOODMAN JOHN KERIACOU joins us now from Washington, D.C.2:22Spent 14 years at the CIA as an analyst and a case officer In 2002 he led the team that found Abu Zubaydah a high member of al He father of five In 2010 he published a memoir entitled The Reluctant Spy Secret Life and the CIA2:39War on Terror.2:41And we're joined by one of John Kiriakou's attorneys, Jessalyn Radak.2:44She's the director of national security and human rights at the Government Accountability2:48Project, a former ethics adviser to the United States Department of Justice.2:52We reached out to the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Virginia, but2:55they declined our request for an interview.2:58John Kiriakou, why are you going to jail?3:03Explain the plea deal you made with the government.3:05JOHN KIRIAKOU, Well, thanks, first of all, for having me and giving me the opportunity3:10to explain.3:12I'm going to prison ostensibly for violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act3:18of 1982.3:20I believe and my supporters believe that this, however, was not a case about leaking.3:25This was a case about torture.3:28And I believe I'm going to prison because I blew the whistle on torture.3:32I've been a thwart in the CIA's side since that interview in 2007, in which I said that3:37waterboarding was torture and that it was official U.S. government policy.3:42And I think, finally, the Justice Department caught up with me.3:45Jocelyn Radack, let me just bring you into the conversation to explain what the Intelligence3:51Identities Protection Act is.3:55Your client, John Kiriakou, it's been invoked in his case for the first time in 27 years?4:01That's correct.4:03In fact, there have only been two convictions under the Intelligence Identities Protection4:08Act, which was enacted to prevent cases like Philip Agee, not things like John Kiriakou.4:16It was to prevent the revealing of covert identities for profit or to aid the enemy.4:22In this case, John confirmed the name of a torturer to a journalist, which makes Neal4:31McBride's statement all the more hypocritical, because the biggest leaker of classified information4:38including sources and methods and undercover identities, has been the U.S. government.4:44John Kiriakou, explain what it is that you were trying to expose. Explain what you were involved4:51with Talk about Abu Zubaydah your involvement in the finding of him and then the course you took where your conscience took you Sure In 2002 I was the chief of counterterrorism operations for the CIA in Pakistan5:09And my job was to try to locate al-Qaeda fighters or al-Qaeda leaders and capture them, to turn5:17them over to the Justice Department and have them face trial.5:22That was the original—the original idea, not to have them sit in Cuba for the next5:26decade.5:28But we caught Abu Zubaydah.5:30He was shot three times by Pakistani police as he was trying to escape from his safehouse.5:38And I was the first person to have custody of him, to sit with him.5:43We spoke to each other extensively, I mean, talked about everything from September 11th5:48to poetry that he had been writing to his family.5:52And then he was moved on to a secret prison after that.5:55Once I got back to headquarters, I heard that he had been subject to harsh techniques, then6:03euphemistically called enhanced interrogation techniques.6:06And I was asked by one of the leaders in the CIA's counterterrorist center if I wanted6:11to be trained in the use of these techniques.6:13I told him that I had a moral problem with them, and I did not want to be involved.6:19So fast forward to 2007.6:23By then, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International had reported that al-Qaeda prisoners had been6:30tortured.6:32And ABC News called and said that they had information that I had tortured Abu Zubaydah.6:38I said that was absolutely untrue.6:40I was the only person who was kind to Abu Zubaydah, and I had never tortured anybody.6:45So they asked me to go on their show and defend myself.6:49I did that.6:51And in the course of the interview, I said that not only was the CIA torturing prisoners,6:55but that it was official U.S. government policy.6:58This was not the result of some rogue CIA officer just beating up a prisoner every once in a7:03while.7:04This was official policy that went all the way up to the president of the United States.7:07And so what happened after that, in 2007, once you gave this interview?7:13Can you explain what happened to you and to your family?7:16Sure.7:17Within 24 hours, the CIA filed what's called a crimes report against me with the Justice7:22Department saying that I had revealed classified information which was the torture program and asking for an investigation with an eye toward prosecuting me The Justice Department decided at the time that I had not revealed classified information7:35that the information was already in the public domain.7:39But immediately, within weeks, I was audited by the IRS.7:43I've been audited by the IRS every single year since giving that interview in 2007.7:49But a more important bit of fallout from that interview was that every time I would write7:56an op-ed, every time I would give a television interview or give a speech at a university,8:02the CIA would file a crimes report against me, accusing me of leaking additional classified8:06information.8:08Each time, the Justice Department determined that I did not leak any classified information.8:12In fact, I would get those op-eds and those speeches cleared by the CIA's Publications8:17Review Board in advance.8:19Then the CIA started harassing my wife, who at the time was a senior CIA officer, particularly8:26over an op-ed I had written.8:28They accused her of leaking classified information to me for the purpose of writing the op-ed.8:33Well, I said I had gotten the information in the op-ed from two UPI reports and from8:41a South American Ministry of Foreign Affairs website.8:46And they would back off.8:47This sort of became our life.8:49We would be under FBI surveillance.8:52She would be called into the CIA's Office of Security.8:55I would have trouble getting a security clearance when I went to Capitol Hill.8:59It just became this pattern of harassment.9:01AMY GOODMAN, So, John, why didn't you stop?9:04JOHN KERRY, Because I think that torture is something that needs to be discussed.9:11I said this in 2007.9:13This is something that we should—about which we should be having a national debate.9:17And frankly, I have a First Amendment right to free speech.9:22And, you know, writing an op-ed is not against the law.9:25Giving a speech about the Arab Spring or about torture is not against the law.9:30And I felt that I didn't want to be cowed.9:34I didn't want to be frightened into silence by the CIA.9:38AMY GOODMAN, And, John Kiriakou, you said that in these instances that you've named,9:43you were actually charged with espionage.9:44Is that right?9:45Can you talk about the significance of the Espionage Act?9:48Yes.9:49The government initially charged me with three counts of espionage.9:53I'm—it sounds silly, maybe, but I'm still personally offended by these espionage charges,10:00which were dropped, of course.10:02The espionage charge is used as a hammer by the administration to force people into silence.10:09My espionage charge is related to a conversation that I had with a New York Times reporter.10:15A New York Times reporter approached me and said that he was writing a story about a colleague10:19of mine and would I grant him an interview.10:22I gave him the interview.10:23I said this colleague was a great guy, the unsung hero of the Abu Zubaydah operation,10:29terrific officer.10:31And the reporter said, do you know how I can get in touch with him?10:34And I said, no, I've been out of touch with him for a while, but I think I might have10:37his business card.10:38So I gave the reporter the business card.10:40Now, mind you, this is a CIA officer who had never, ever been undercover.10:45His business card showed that he was involved as a CIA contractor, and it had his personal10:52e-mail on it and his cell phone number.10:54I gave the reporter the business card and was charged with two counts of espionage.10:59I later gave the same business card to another journalist who was doing an article and was11:04charged with a third count of espionage.11:06What is it that you allege the CIA was doing for all of these years?11:11Explain the torture program that you were trying to expose.11:16Sure.11:17There were something like 10 different techniques that were used in the CIA's torture program.11:24They went from the benign, you know, where an officer would grab a prisoner by the lapels11:31and give him a shake, all the way up to the really rough things that we've heard about,11:36like waterboarding or what I think is worse, sleep deprivation or the cold cell, where11:44they put a prisoner naked in a cell chilled to 50 or 55 degrees and then every hour or two throw ice water on him I actually think those last two are worse than waterboarding11:56But again, these are techniques that we have condemned other countries for throughout history.12:03The Japanese did this during the Second World War.12:06The Belgians did it in Africa earlier in the century.12:11The Chinese and the Vietnamese did it.12:13This is—these are techniques that we have always said were crimes against humanity.12:17And then it was though—it was though, after September 11th, everything changed, and we12:21somehow had license to do the same things we had been condemning.12:26I thought that was wrong.12:28You know, Director Petraeus, former Director Petraeus, made a statement in October when12:33I agreed to take a plea to make these other charges go away.12:37And he said that my conviction shows that we have to take our oaths seriously.12:43Well, I took my oath seriously.12:45My oath was to the Constitution.12:47On my first day in the CIA, I put my right hand up and I swore to uphold the Constitution.12:52And to me, torture is unconstitutional.12:55And it's something that we should not be in the business of doing.12:58AMY GOODMAN, I want to play for you comments President Obama made four years ago, shortly13:04before he took office about whether CIA officials involved in torture should be prosecuted.13:10He appeared on the ABC News this week.13:12I don't believe that anybody is above the law.13:16On the other hand, I also have a belief that we need to look forward as opposed to looking13:22backwards.13:23And part of my job is to make sure that, for example, at the CIA, you've got extraordinarily13:30talented people who are working very hard to keep Americans safe.13:35I don want them to suddenly feel like they got to spend all their time looking over their shoulders and lawyer So no 9 commission with independent subpoena power We have not made final decisions but my instinct is for us to focus on how do we make sure13:50that moving forward we are doing the right thing.13:54That was President Obama speaking four years ago to ABC.13:57John Kiryakou, your response to what the president said?14:01I supported the president's response.14:04I remember that interview, and I thought, OK, he's right.14:07There are wonderful, talented, hardworking men and women at the CIA who need to be protected.14:12But at the same time, it's one thing to look forward.14:16It's another thing to look forward just for the torturers.14:20It's just not fair.14:21It's not fair to the American people.14:23If we're going to make prosecutions or initiate prosecutions, those prosecutions can't just14:32be against the people who blew the whistle on the torture or who opposed the torture.14:38You know, we haven't even investigated the torturers, as Jessalyn said.14:44We haven't initiated any actions against the people who conceived of the torture and14:49implemented the policy, or against the man who destroyed evidence of the torture, or14:54against the attorneys who used specious legal arguments to justify the torture.15:00If we're going to move forward, let's move forward.15:02But you can't target one person or two people who blew the whistle.15:06John Kiriakou, you've also spoken about witnessing new Foreign Service officers being15:11confirmed, Foreign Service officers who were previously with the CIA and participated in15:17acts of torture.15:19Could you explain what happened and explain its significance?15:22Yes.15:23When I was a senior investigator on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee I was approached by a journalist who said that he had evidence that the CIA was misusing its cover agreement with the State Department to place people involved in the torture15:36program under State Department cover so that their names could not be exposed in the press.15:41And if those names were exposed in the press, the people giving the names would be subject to the15:47Intelligence Identities Protection Act. So, again, this was a violation of the CIA State Department15:55cover agreement.15:56I sent a letter under Senator John Kerry—then Senator John Kerry's signature—asking the16:01CIA for clarification.16:04I got a response about six weeks later that was classified top secret, so I was not permitted16:09to see the response.16:10I did not have a top secret clearance at the time.16:13And a colleague of mine told me that the letter essentially said, in very strongly worded16:18language, to mind my own business.16:20We're going to go to break.16:22When we come back, we want to ask you about President Obama's nominee to become the next16:26head of the CIA, John Brennan, because as you talk about the administration, we're16:31talking actually about administrations, from the Bush administration to the Obama administration.16:36Our guest is about to go to jail.16:38His name is John Kiriakou.16:39He's about to serve two and a half years in jail.16:43This will be one of his last interviews before he goes to prison.16:47We're joined also by Jocelyn Radak, who is one of his attorneys.16:50Stay with us.16:51AMY GOODMAN, THANK YOU.