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0:00Does the CIA listen through our phones and laptop cameras?0:04Yes.0:04I hate to say it.0:05They can take over your smart television0:10and turn the speaker into a microphone0:12so that they can listen to what's being said in the room0:15even when the TV is turned off.0:22Hello, I'm John Kiriakou.0:24I'm a former CIA counterterrorism officer0:26and former senior investigator for the US Senate0:29Committee on Foreign Relations, and I'm here today to answer questions from the honesty box.0:38The first one is, what did the CIA actually do? There are several answers to that question.0:46What the CIA is supposed to do, what it is legally tasked with doing, is very simply0:52to recruit spies, to steal secrets, and then to analyze those secrets to give the president0:58and other senior policymakers the best information with which they can make policy.1:04Now, in real life, it's not that simple.1:07The CIA does whatever the president tells it to do.1:10That could be to overthrow foreign governments.1:14It could be to implement covert action programs, to influence the foreign media, to even kill people.1:21It just depends on who the president is and what policy he wants to implement.1:26What skills make a good agent? You might be surprised by the answer, actually. The CIA,1:34when it recruits spies, when it recruits operations officers, doesn't necessarily look for1:41the big buff guy who works out every day or six days a week. They look for people who1:49have sociopathic tendencies, not sociopaths. Sociopaths are impossible to control because1:57they have no conscience. They blow right through a polygraph exam, but they won't take orders.2:03People who have sociopathic tendencies do react to a polygraph. They do experience regret or2:11remorse. They will respond to directives and orders. I'll give you an example. When I first2:17was recruited by the CIA I was asked in a group of new hires what we would do if we got a cable from CIA headquarters ordering us to collect information on the Indonesian economy You recruit the Indonesian economic secretary you make him your best friend2:36you spend money on him,2:38your wives become friends,2:39you vacation together,2:40but you learn that he is just not recruitable.2:44So what do you do?2:45Well, one of my colleagues said,2:47you double down,2:48work the case another six months2:50and hope for the best.2:52A second colleague said,2:53maybe you work it through your wives, maybe your wife can convince his wife to give you the information.2:59I raised my hand and I said, you break into the Indonesian embassy and you steal it.3:04And the instructor said, that's exactly what you do. That's a sociopathic tendency.3:11What's the coolest piece of spy tech you ever got to use? You know, there's kind of a dirty3:15little secret about spy tech and it is that 95 of it is purchased from amazon.com seriously3:25because it is cheaper and it is quicker just to go online and buy it and then use it operationally3:31than it is to invent it from scratch the coolest piece of spy tech that i ever used3:37was it was a leather briefcase. I just went into the local marketplace in Pakistan and bought it.3:45I think it cost the equivalent of like $10. And over the course of three days, one of our3:51technical officers pulled the threads out of it, installed a wire all the way around the briefcase,3:59which could act as a listening device, and then packed the area around the wire with these little4:06teeny tiny batteries that I had never seen before and then he sewed the whole4:10thing closed again. So I walked into a meeting with my little briefcase. The bad4:16guy took the briefcase from me, opened it up, looked through it. It didn't have4:20anything in it because it was all sewn into the lining and we sat there and had4:26the meeting while my colleagues half a mile away were able to listen to the4:31entire thing. It was very cool.4:32Does the CIA listen through our phones and laptop cameras?4:37Yes.4:37I hate to say it.4:39There was a dramatic leak in 2017 that the CIA came to call the Vault 7 disclosures.4:47Gigabytes worth of documents leaked by a CIA technology engineer.4:54What he told us was that the CIA can intercept anything from anyone number one Number two they can remotely take control of your car through the car embedded computer5:09To do what?5:10To make you drive off a bridge, into a tree, to make you kill yourself and make it look5:16like an accident.5:19They can take over your smart television and turn the speaker into a microphone so that5:25they can listen to what's being said in the room even when the TV is turned off.5:31God knows what else they can do that hasn't been leaked.5:36Are hit men real?5:39At the National Security Council, there is a committee that meets every Tuesday morning5:43at 9 o'clock to drop something called the kill list.5:47They sit around a table and they make a list of all the people that they want to kill that5:51week.5:52And then they take it back to the CIA, which has a dedicated unit.5:56I won't tell you the name, but it has a dedicated unit that takes receipt of the list.6:00They say, okay, number one, they drive to the airport, they get on the plane, they go6:07out to that country, they kill the person, they come back, and then they go to number6:11two on the list.6:12That happens every single week.6:15Now, we can have a conversation about whether that's right or whether it's wrong.6:20It's certainly immoral.6:22It's illegal, but it's been tasked by the president.6:26At the same time, they will tell you there hasn't been another 9-11, has there?6:32Maybe it's because we're out there killing people.6:34What kind of people would be on that list?6:36Oh, the most dangerous terrorists in the world.6:40Or at least people that the CIA deems to be the most dangerous terrorists in the world.6:44How does the CIA recruit spies in foreign countries?6:48Ah, that cuts right to the very heart of what the CIA is.6:52The CIA trains its officers in something called the asset acquisition cycle.6:58It has four steps.6:59Spot, assess, develop, recruit.7:03So let's say you're a brand new CIA officer overseas.7:06you get out there and mingle and go to diplomatic cocktail parties or go anywhere where there might7:15be a viable target for you. You spot the target, you go up, hi, how are you? I'm the new officer7:22at the American embassy I covering political affairs or economic affairs or trade or whatever it is you doing You exchange business cards That spotting Assessing is I say so what do you do for a living If you tell7:36me that you do something that I'm operationally interested in, that's my assessment of you.7:41Then I develop you. That's actually the fun part. That is us going to lunch and going to dinner.7:48And I spend money on you because I have literally an unlimited budget to do so.7:52and maybe we go on vacation together and our wives are friends.7:57And you mentioned offhandedly that you like to go fishing, let's say.8:01So I charter a boat for $4,000 and I take you deep sea fishing8:06because you could never afford to do it on your own.8:08And then we become best friends.8:12And because we're best friends, I say to you,8:15hey, would you do me a favor?8:18Yeah, I'm sorry to ask, but you know, the Russians have this new tank8:22and I know that you guys have access to the plans8:24and I would really appreciate it8:25if you could just make me a copy of those plans.8:28I know that sounds kind of funny,8:29but it would help me a lot.8:31So, hey, thanks, I appreciate it.8:33I'll pick them up tonight.8:35And then maybe I start giving you a little bit of money8:38and then finally, when it comes to the recruitment,8:41I say, I haven't been totally honest with you.8:46I'm actually a CIA officer undercover.8:49Are you okay with that?8:50You're a great guy and you're my best friend.8:54And how about if I give you $5,000 a month and you just answer my questions, right?9:01That's cool, right?9:02And you undoubtedly will say yes.9:05And the rest is history.9:08Got to be a good actor to do that.9:10Pull that off.9:11Yeah.9:12And a sociopath.9:15Do you ever fear for your life?9:18Not now, but over the course of my career, I did several times.9:22And I'll give you one example.9:24There were two active assassination attempts against me.9:28In one, I just got lucky.9:30And unfortunately, my next-door neighbor was killed instead.9:32He was the British defense attache in Athens, Brigadier General Stephen Saunders.9:38I think about it every single day.9:40In another, an enemy country sent one of its officers and a double agent to kill me.9:45but we had advance warning that it was going to happen,9:48and we were able to, well,9:51we were able to neutralize the threat,9:53as they say in the movies.9:55But there was another experience that I had9:57that troubled me deeply.9:58I was serving in Pakistan,10:00at the time. And I was staying in a small guest house because it was safer than a big hotel.10:07Sure enough, the big hotel was blown up and 45 people were killed while I was living there.10:12But I left my guest house at a different time, like I did every day, and took a different route,10:17like I did every day, to go to work. And I noticed that a man on a motorcycle wearing a red helmet10:24was trying very hard to stay in my blind spot.10:27I worked 12, 14 hours, whatever it was that day,10:30and I left, and it was dark,10:32and sure enough, there he was again.10:35There's a definition of surveillance.10:37It's multiple sightings at time and distance.10:40So I've seen him multiple times,10:42at different times of the day,10:44and at different places.10:45I'm definitely under surveillance.10:47I got up at 5 o'clock in the morning,10:49got in the car, drove a block,10:51there he was again.10:53So when I got to the office, I said to the security officer, I am under surveillance.10:58I'm 100% sure that I'm under surveillance.11:02He said, well, let's wait until the chief comes in.11:04When the chief finally came in, I told him the story.11:07And he said, well, you know what you have to do.11:11I said, I know.11:12I'm going to kill him if I see him this afternoon.11:15I was worried about it all day.11:17And all my coworkers came up to me that day to slap me on the back and say, don't worry.11:22We're all going to be out there.11:24We're going to have a whole security team.11:26I said, I know, but I never killed anybody before.11:28And I'm so worried that he's going to kill me before I get a clear shot at him.11:33That afternoon, I had a meeting at a safe house that we shared with the local service.11:40And on my way out at the end of the meeting, and I don't know why I did this, but I turned11:47around and I said, General, are you following me?11:51And he said, no, why?11:53And I said, because I'm under surveillance.11:55And if I see this guy again, I'm going to kill him.11:59And I never saw him again.12:01I learned later that several of their officers were sitting around and saying,12:06you know, that new American guy, he's such a nice guy.12:10Nobody's that nice.12:12I wonder if he's being nice just to try to make us drop our guard.12:16and they decided to put the worst surveillance officer12:20in their entire intelligence service on me And if I hadn said something that afternoon he would be in the ground today Does Trump have the UK and Europe back12:35No, he doesn't.12:37When we hear from journalists or political figures that Donald Trump doesn't like the12:43Europeans, he doesn't like NATO, he doesn't like the European Union, we should take the12:48man at his word.12:49I don't think he does have Europe's back or even the UK's back.12:53When he says America first, he means America first, whatever that means.12:59He has an idea in his own mind, but I don't think he cares one whit about Europe.13:05Which film or TV series portrays spy work the most accurately?13:09Great question.13:11I will tell you that at the CIA, we watch every single spy movie and spy series.13:19All of us do.13:20I'm proud to say that I have been the script advisor on the Bourne ultimatum, on Kill the Messenger, on True Lies, and on Burn Notice.13:30We love this kind of thing.13:32Most of them have nothing whatsoever to do with the reality of the CIA, except a couple.13:39In terms of TV, Homeland, wow, they got it right.13:44The only thing that they got wrong was if you go crazy, they send you to the hospital until you're not crazy anymore.13:51In movies, there was a movie that came out in 2004 called The Recruit.13:56The first half of the movie where the lead character is going through training, 100% accurate, except for one minor difference.14:06They didn't beat us in training.14:08Everything else that he went through, we went through it in spades.14:11Most other movies stinkers.14:14And listen, just as a general rule,14:16if somebody calls the CIA the company, turn it off.14:21Is social media the biggest intelligence gathering tool today?14:25It is absolutely one of them, yes.14:28You know, I was always amazed when I was at the CIA14:31at how targets, legitimate intelligence targets,14:36would literally put their entire lives on LinkedIn and Facebook.14:40and Facebook. Incredible. You don't even have to do any research. They lay it all out right there14:47on the screen for you. So the answer is yes. If you value your privacy, if you don't want to pop14:54up on the radar you have to stay away from social media What was 9 impact on the world You know I was in the CIA headquarters on the morning of 915:06Well we knew we were at war.15:08And one of the first thoughts that I had that morning was, does Osama bin Laden have any15:14idea what he's done?15:16Does he have any idea how many people are going to die?15:21We all knew what the American response was going to be.15:23It was going to be merciless.15:25The question is, what was 9-11's impact on the world?15:29It was dramatic and lasting.15:32We're almost 24 years after the 9-11 attacks, and we still can't go through airports with15:37our shoes on.15:39Untold trillions of dollars have been spent on counterterrorism and defense, and that15:44is probably never going to change.15:48Why are there so many wars in 2025?15:51Well, do you want my real answer or do you want my diplomatic answer?15:55My real answer is the U.S. has a defense budget that is bigger than the next eight largest16:01countries combined.16:03After 9-11, the U.S. entered into something like a permanent wartime economy, where if16:10we didn't have a war to fight and to finance, we would actually go into recession.16:15Now, we see ourselves as the world's peacekeepers.16:18In many cases, we're not.16:20We tend to be places where we're not wanted or welcome and we end up forgetting to leave.16:27There's an old joke inside the CIA about Iran.16:30Like, why would Iran put its country right in the middle of all of our military bases?16:35There you have it.16:37Why are there so many wars?16:39It's because the U.S. has an activist foreign policy.16:43And sometimes we make friends on the wrong side of issues.16:48Can the CIA make someone disappear without a trace?16:51You bet they can, and they do all the time.16:55In the immediate aftermath of the 9-11 attacks, the CIA created, for example, an archipelago17:01of secret prisons, and they would just disappear people.17:04We would capture people in al-Qaeda safe houses, for example, let's say in Pakistan or Afghanistan,17:11and we would ship them off to these secret prisons.17:15And when I say secret prisons I mean in many cases they were so secret that even the presidents and prime ministers of the countries where the prisons were based didn know that there were secret CIA prisons in their countries So the CIA can make people disappear in that respect They can kill people and just bury them17:37you know, in some crazy foreign land and nobody would ever know. But if you're a CIA officer,17:44or better yet, let's say you're a KGB officer and you want to defect, the CIA will give you17:51a completely new identity, more money than you can ever count, and you and your family17:55can live happily ever after, you know, under the name John Smith.18:00And nobody would be the wiser.18:02How does the USA track terrorist threats?18:05They use something called the terrorist matrix.18:08It's also called all-source intelligence.18:12Believe it or not, members of terrorist groups actually give press interviews in which they18:17telegraph what they're going to do in their next attack.18:20That's one way.18:21the media, electronic surveillance.18:24It could be intercepting cell phones, intercepting emails,18:28intercepting encoded messages,18:30even intercepting messages from game platforms.18:33We have satellites that track these things.18:36We have spies providing what's called human,18:39short for human intelligence.18:41So you use literally every source at your dispense18:46and put this matrix together to try to disrupt that next attack.18:50Can you be a spy and have a moral compass?18:53What a great question that is.18:56I'm going to say yes, because I had a moral compass.19:01It cost me my freedom.19:03It cost me my job.19:06It cost me my family.19:09But it was worth it.19:11There are some things that you are tasked to do as a CIA counterintelligence officer19:19that you just have to say no to.19:22There are some things that are so immoral,19:25so unethical, in many cases so illegal,19:29that you just should not do it.19:32What is the most controversial thing19:34you've worked on or heard about?19:35It has to be the torture program.19:37I went to prison for 23 months for going public19:40with the CIA's torture program.19:44I went on ABC News in the United States in December of 200719:48and I said three things.19:49I said the CIA was torturing its prisoners.19:52I said that torture was official US government policy.19:56And I said that the policy had been personally approved19:58by the president himself.20:00The FBI investigated me. They determined I had not committed a crime. Then Barack Obama became president. They secretly reopened the case against me. I was indicted and charged with five felonies, including three counts of espionage for giving this interview.20:18this interview remember espionage can be a death penalty charge i had three of them well i hadn't20:23committed espionage and finally they dropped those charges but i ended up taking a plea to a lesser20:29charge just to make this thing go away i had five kids at home i had gone bankrupt from from the20:35legal expenses and i was facing 45 years in prison they offered me 23 months and i took the deal20:43But I would do it again today if I had to, because somebody had to stand up and say that20:49this was wrong.20:52Shouldn't torture be legal if we are protecting American lives?20:55Absolutely not.20:56Not under any circumstances.20:58Torture doesn't work.21:00Torture is illegal internationally.21:02It is immoral.21:03And you end up making a recruitment video, essentially, for your greatest enemies.21:09For example, when it became apparent that the U.S. was torturing military prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, and video was leaked showing those prisoners in orange jumpsuits, ISIS bought orange jumpsuits and made its kidnapping victims, who were mostly aid workers and American journalists, wear orange jumpsuits and then beheaded them on camera.21:39They did that only because the U.S. was torturing its prisoners.21:44So torture does not work.21:45Torture is illegal.21:47It is immoral.21:48It is unethical.21:49And no one should be in the business of doing it.21:52What's the most dangerous country in the world right now?21:55Also a good question.21:56There are several.21:58And I've been to all of them.22:00I never got to go to the nice places.22:01I went to 72 countries with the CIA and almost all of them were just awful.22:06Some of the most dangerous places in the world are Yemen, Somalia, Gaza,22:13Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan. You have to sleep with one eye open. You just never22:21know how bad things are going to get And I give you an example I went to Yemen five times and every time I went it was worse than the previous time The fifth and final time that I went we were only allowed to stay at one hotel22:36The hotel had a 30-foot-high wall around it to protect it from bomb blasts.22:41You couldn't stay in any of the other hotels by then.22:45Well, the day after I arrived, a group of South Korean diplomats arrived,22:50and on the drive from the airport to the hotel,22:54they were ambushed and they were all killed, six of them.22:58A couple of days later,22:59a group of South Korean intelligence officers arrived23:03to investigate the murder of the six diplomats23:06and they were ambushed and they were murdered.23:11And so the South Koreans just closed their embassy23:13and went home.23:14That's a pretty dangerous country.23:16What do you make of US foreign policy right now?23:18A complete and utter disaster.23:22I've never seen an administration that works so hard to offend and alienate our friends.23:28Threatening to invade Canada?23:30That's an act of war.23:32Canada is not just a NATO country, but it's a Five Eyes country.23:36Five Eyes being the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.23:40The closest alliance in the entire world.23:43And what, we're going to send an army to Canada and overthrow them?23:49It doesn't make any sense.23:51Even if you're joking, why would you even joke like that out loud?23:54We don't coordinate with our European allies.23:58We're threatening to invade Panama to take the Panama Canal.24:01We're threatening to invade and annex Greenland.24:04It's craziness.24:05So I'm not a big supporter of US foreign policy right now.24:09Does China actually pose a real risk to the West?24:13I think no, and I'll tell you why.24:17China simply does not have a history of expansionism.24:23If you put aside Tibet, which the Chinese have always claimed to be a part of China,24:29the Chinese have never invaded another country.24:32They had a little border skirmish with the Vietnamese in the 1970s.24:38They had a little border skirmish against India in the 1960s, but they don't invade countries.24:44And they have only one military base outside of China. It's in Djibouti. And believe it or not,24:49they share it with the United States It the US that sees China as the big threat and Australia and the Philippines kind of see China as a threat But the Chinese are perplexed as to why we so distrust them Is there a threat from China to Taiwan25:08Of course there is.25:09Taiwan is also seen by the Chinese as being a legitimate part of China,25:13but there's no indication that the Chinese are preparing any offensive measures against Taiwan.25:19I just don't see what the big threat is.25:21Is the CIA or MI6 more elite?25:26MI6 is an absolutely top-tier first-rate service,25:31but it's like comparing apples and oranges.25:33At the CIA, we used to say how much we wished we could be like MI625:38because MI6 is small and it's lean,25:43and when they decide to do something, by God, they go out and do it.25:46At the CIA, when we decide to do something,25:49we have six layers of bureaucracy that we have to go through to finally get permission.25:54And then the attorneys get involved, and then you have to send it to the president,25:58and then he has to sign it or change it or reject it or do whatever it is he has to do.26:04They don't have that kind of a problem at MI6.26:07They just report directly to the prime minister, and they can get things done.26:10The CIA has a budget that absolutely dwarfs the MI6 budget.26:14And we have our own high-level technology budget, satellites and spy planes and all kinds of crazy things.26:22So they're both great services, but they're different at the same time.26:27Are sleeper agents real?26:29Yes, they are.26:30And the country that is the best at using sleeper agents is Russia.26:35The United States doesn't have a program of sleeper agents.26:38And I'm frankly unaware of any Western intelligence service that has sleeper agents or that uses sleeper agents.26:44The Russians have an army of sleeper agents.26:47In fact, just in the last two or three years, a group of Russian sleeper agents in northern26:54Virginia, including one in my neighborhood, were disrupted and arrested.27:02So what a sleeper agent is, is somebody who is trained as an intelligence officer, who27:08is then sent to the United States or the UK or Brazil or Paris or wherever.27:13and told to just get a job, any job, and be a national of that country.27:21And so you got people who in the case of what happened in Washington recently one was an elementary school teacher and one worked for an airline Everybody thought they were Americans And in fact they collecting classified information27:40mostly from U.S. defense contractors, and secretly transmitting it back to Russian intelligence27:46in the evenings. They were disrupted and expelled from the United States.27:50is chief of disguise a real job you bet it is they have the most fun in the world on the day27:58that i got hired i was sitting with two other brand new officers and i sat down i said hi my28:05name's john it's nice to meet you both they said um what are you going to do here at the agency i28:10said i'm going to be an intelligence officer i have degrees in middle eastern studies what are28:14you guys going to do the woman said to me oh i just graduated from the falls church virginia28:20Academy of Beauty. Academy of Beauty. She ended up becoming a master disguise maker.28:28And the guy on my left was a cartoonist for his college newspaper. He drew a little cartoon that28:35was very popular. He became a master forger. So it doesn't really matter what your background is.28:41If you're good at it, there's a place for you at the CIA. And many of those places28:47are working for the director of disguise.28:51What made you decide to blow the whistle?28:54It's very brave.28:56You know, at the CIA, we are trained to believe29:02that everything in life is a shade of gray.29:04And that is just simply not true.29:07Some things are black and white.29:08They're right or wrong.29:10And the United States has laws that ban torture.29:15We have the Federal Torture Act of 1946.29:18We are not just signatories to the United Nations Convention Against Torture.29:22We wrote the United Nations Convention Against Torture.29:26In 1946, the United States executed Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American POWs.29:35In 1968, an American soldier waterboarded a North Vietnamese prisoner and was given 20 years at hard labor in a military prison.29:45after being convicted of torture.29:47The law never changed.29:49So how is it then that from 2002 to 2005,29:54torture was somehow magically legal?29:56It wasn't legal.29:57We were committing crimes against humanity.30:00And so it was something that I, having known the details, I couldn't sleep at night.30:07And I believed, and in retrospect, I was right, that the American people had a right to know what their government was doing in their name.30:16And I'm proud to say that because of my revelations, the McCain-Feinstein Amendment was passed into law and it formally and permanently banned torture.30:25Have you investigated any of us before this shoot?30:29Funny you should say that.30:30There was some light touch work done.30:31Let's just put it there.30:33Especially the cameraman, that one there.